after leaving the jw's, if you read the bible, how did you do it?
where did you start genesis?
matthew?
I started at the beginning, a book called WHO WROTE THE BIBLE Richard E. Friedman
it showed me that the hand of man was large in the bible and several books on cults helped me to see that there really was no god behind the bible stories, just con artists and people who were trying to figure out their place in reality as we all do...
I found other books which explained how christianity and the bible came from pagan mythologies which were much older and able to fill in many gaps
when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.
the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.
the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).
Were you ever truly a Christian? Were you ever Born Again? Did you experience The Holy Spirit living inside of you? Did you ever have a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ?
This assumes there is such a thing as a true christian, which to me now is a figment of your imagination, not a reality you can demonstrate as such.... as for experiencing, I have experienced lots of odd things, but now I am honest and admit I am ignorant as to the actual source and meaning of those experiences rather than ASSume they are from god or devil and have a specific concrete meaning that has no other confirmation than my own feeble imagination.
Zen, the difference is, there is only One Jesus Christ that actually died for you -- only ONE.
again, this is your imagination and/or belief, not a fact. but assuming the Jesus of the bible were a real person and not just a jewish adaptation of ancient godman, suffering messiah myths, as I now believe him to be, he does not strike me as the kind who would murder people or have them tormented forever for silliness associated with the trinity doctrine, rather he seems the sort who would skewer those who use such stupid debating as a reason to hate and divide rather than to obey his command to love all including your enemies.... he criticized the pharisees for such nonsensical arguments over being kind to their fellow man...etc.
Only the True Jesus Christ, the Almighty Creator God of the Bible, died for your sins.
if the bible never comes out and make is critical for salvation that I accept Jesus as God, who are you to demand it? if I were a christian accepting Jesus, etc... it does not seem to matter to him that I see him other than he asked Peter-- who do you say I am? to which he replied the christ son of God.[not God], to which Jesus replied this was given not of men, but of God. If that is Good enough for Jesus, it would be good enough for me if I were a believer.
The most important thing of all, is having a close, personal relationship with JESUS and being reconciled with God The Father and having The Holy Spirit live inside of your heart.It amazes me to no end that people like you can believe that anyone can have a personal relationship with a character in a book, which of course is the ONLY Jesus you actually know... your self delusions and emotional expeirences not with standing.
Notice what Christ Himself said:John 17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
if you believed this we would not be discussing the trinity as I am sure you understand the meaning of ONLY
Jesus said that it is EQUALLY important to KNOW God The Father AND Jesus Christ, and that this IS Eternal Life!
Accepting the myth as literal, this still shows a difference between GOD and Jesus, not just GOD the FATHER.
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if one claims that the bible is the inspired word of god, good for teaching, etc.... would not the making of books to explain the bible mean that you beileve that god did not know what he was doing .
i see so many claiming that the spirit of god
If one claims that the bible is THE inspired word of God, good for teaching, etc.... would not the making of books to explain the bible mean that you beileve that God did not know what he was doing and needed man's help?
I see so many claiming that the spirit of God is required to help one understand the bible, but what does that have to do with books? is that the spirit of God? some how I doubt that is what the authors intended.... and if God made a book that hardly anyone could understand, perhaps it was for a reason and those who are trying to make the masses understand are working against the apparent will of God, no?
the study articles are amazing.
i can't tell if anyone caught it but they are ground breakingly incompetent.
the have redefined 1914, the anointed, fds and the "evil slave".
Thus the entire anointed Christian congregation was to serve in a united stewardship, dispensing such truths.lets just see what would happen if just joe annointed showed up at the society and told them he wanted to get on the governing body because he is part of the faithful and descreet slave.... which has for most of JW history been a secret code for them and no one else...
which calls to mind the transition from annointed to non-annointed while there are plenty of annoited but obviously not trusted members around?
when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.
the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.
the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).
after I stopped being a christian, I realized something about this STUPID trinity debate.... from the outside looking in, what difference does it make if you call Jesus, God or the son of God, the appointed king over all creation?
both are spirit beings supposedly right now, both are invisible, both rule from heaven...but are respected by JW and trinitarian as Absolute authorities of equal weight.
BTW, I also notice a great con job.....
the issue of a human king comes to the fore in the time of Samuel, even though provisions supposedly existed in the law, Samuel is saddened by the people wanting a physical flesh and blood king like all the other nations.
God tells him that it is he that has been rejected not Samuel and tells him to appoint Saul.
later Saul turns out to be a reject in the eyes of God and so he appoints David and when David turns out to be a man after God's own heart, he promises David that there will never be a time when a king from his line does not sit upon the throne....
so if Jesus is the king that is promised to David, God stole the throne back to heaven, and essentially mislead all of Israel and was very deceptive with his promises...as there is no longer any visible flesh and blood king on earth as was promised and which was the whole point of having a king in the first place.
talk about being screwed....
but if you read Genesis carefully, it says that the Kings would come from the line of Judah, and that shows that Genesis was written AFTER the time of David or else that God lied his ass off when he picked Saul in the first place, knowing full well that he had already said it would be from Judah not Benjamin.
when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.
the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.
the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).
I posted this under another topic, but it is more approriate here:
1. there are three visions by people claiming to look into heaven. Daniel, Stephen, and John... all three to me show exactly the same thing, namely ONE who is seen as GOD alone, and another who Daniel calls the son of MAN, Stephen calls Jesus on the right hand of GOD and John sees as the Lamb who approaches the throne of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY as the lion of JUDAH... there are only two beings mentioned in all three cases, only ONE of these is seen as GOD and spoken of as GOD.... they say a picture is worth a thousand words but what are visions worth? then there is the point that in revelations the holy spirit is spoken of as 7 bowls of fire and the seven eyes of God, which seems a direct reference to the seven angels of God mentioned in the hebrew bible as the eyes of God which rove the earth.... there is no person ever seen in any vision as the holy ghost.
2. since most people accept as fact that the jews were among the few who had no trinity concept at all, there is an odd absence in that there is no one explaining this change of the nature of God to anyone in the bible anywhere... trinitarians assume different texts are proofs of the trinity that they already believe in, but no one in the bible ever taught them the trinity. the trinity is always a teaching outside the bible by people who already believe in it... this absence screams out to anyone who looks from a jewish point of view for the teacher of the trinity within the bible
3. the only verse which discusses the nature of God in context of other gods in the greek scripture as far as I can find is 1 cor 8:5-6, all others are out of context when it come to this topic.... and this verse quite clearly says that to us [believers], there is but ONE who is GOD, the father.
4. the verses that trinitarians are always saying proves their belief are always out of context when it comes to who god is. not one of them are about someone teaching someone else.
is there any such thing as good?.
the watchtower taught us that all people outside the org either willingly or unknowingly support satan, and soon will die for doing such.
those are some weird goggles to look at people through.. do you find that wt misanthropy still affects your thinking, and makes you feel that the whole world is bad and hopeless?
| Gen 2:17 | But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. |
The issue of Good and Evil is the foundation of the entire bible story and few even question why it is such an important issue as to condemn the entire human race over....what is good and what is evil and who decides?
Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
why should the way that seems right to a man lead to death?
to understand this one must come to realize that buried within all of us is an ideal world image, built up over time by enculturation, exposure to mythology and experiences and we unconsciously compare every experience we have to it and come up with our view of what is good and what is bad, it is our measuring rod.
JW literature is full of the phrase "bible trained conscience" which actually means the ideal standard that JWs have sought to program into its members. JW literature also has numerous references to our hero the perfect Jehovah's Witness, which they hold up as doing this and teaching that and always attending all his meetings and caring for all of his obligations and satisfying his wife in bed and on and on.... no one to my knowledge has ever met Brother perfect but he is always found in the pages of the WatchTower.
but is brother perfect really perfect? he is the watchtower society's ideal, but is he human? most of the time he is little more than the perfect mechanical drone worker ant...not a dynamic living human being.
The Bible presents God as the only one with the absolute authority, right and ability to determine good and evil for all... but on what basis? Should we trust a being who had no one to learn from, who had no teacher, no experiences, nothing but his own ideas which we have no means of assessing? Would the arbitrary ideals of a god be any better than that of a creature?
Some say, God alone can do it because God is all knowing, or potentially so [according to JWs]--- but what does this mean?
that God knows every moment from beginning to end and knowingly compares our lives to a fantasy alterantive which has nothing to do with reality? that is not the sort of god I would want in charge as that smacks of insanity not divine wisdom.
when we say someone is Good or evil we generally refer to how he treats others... and our hopes or fears about how he likely would treat us. by this score most people have those whom they treat well and others they treat as dirt or worse. We all have family which we "love" but often realize that "love" means we are stuck with them like them or not, while others we are NOT stuck with and can tell them to go to hell if they treat us like our own family does. Then there are those we admire and treat well because we either hope it will rub off on us or make others think better of us if we associate with them...these we will often treat much better than family because of our hope that they can do great things for us....then of course there are those we fall in love with because of something quirky within us that we have no understanding [for the most part] and usually little control over... we want to help and benefit them even if it harms us... [evolution explains this better than any other theory in my opinion].
but in reality, there is no good nor evil as a property of anyone or anything.... all good and evil judgements are just that, judgements and there is always some standard ideal lurking about which is not real at all but accepted usually without question because it was brainwashed into us.
quarks seem random...enough of them together make atoms and molecules which in large enough groups seem to have a patterned coherency which gives the impression of order and cause and effect...all of them operating on what appear to be very stable rules which do not seem to vary from one place in the universe to any other except by other rules, such as differences in speeds and masses etc...there is no hint of unfairness nor cheating going on in any physics we have ever measured...so where can it come from in our lives? the obvious answer is that our lives cannot be unfair nor flawed, they are just how the dice fall, how the cards are dealt... there is no winning hand for every round of play in a real world with real elements following real rules....you can bitch and moan about how you think the world is cheating you, but the fact is that the hand you were dealt was just as fair as the hand dealt to the guy with millions of dollars who just struck oil.... you wins some, you loses some.... accept it and you will not be sad, angry or depressed.
from the ot come these words from the great messianic prophecy:
"surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by god, smitten by him, and afflicted.
but he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
the first lie easily accepted is the concept of sin.... how can anyone be judged a sinner except by comparison to something unreal, someones arbitrary fantasy ideal. reality is exactly as it must be at all times, not as we wish it to be. just because 90% of poker hands are losers does not mean the game is unfair and just because things are not as you imagine they could be does not mean that reality is in any way unfair. everyone lives by the very same laws of physics and those laws make some of us losers in the game and some winners, but that is not a mark of imperfection, its just the nature of reality.
by getting people to reject their true nature and real lives, false ideas can be cause people to feel "negative" emotions and seek out irrational solutions so that they can feel "positive" emotions. religions prey upon this false notion that life should always been positive and if not, something is wrong and one needs a god to fix things so that reality will one day always be glowing, positive and sunny... so that the streets are paved with gold and no body ever grows old....etc.
if you stop comparing the world you find as you live it to some arbitrary ideal, the perfection of reality can be seen, this is the mystical oneness with GOD that most mystics have pointed to since the beginning of history and which has been distorted and not understood by the masses who cannot accept that some things such as murder, rape and child abuse can be ever considered perfect by any means....yet they are real and by standard of comparison to nothing but reality, they are just as you find them... no different from the storms that destroy and kill and maime millions every year.
when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.
the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.
the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).
Undisfellowshipped: Thank you very much for the tremendous research you did and also for the patient explanations to everyone who asked about the trinity doctrine. It is true that those who do not believe do not have the Holy Spirit within them in order for them to fully grasp and understand the real truth from the bible.
Its this sort of condescending BS[Belief System] that makes people turned off from anything you might say from this point forwards, not that you care one bit, after all you are claiming to have the HOLY SPIRIT which means that everything you believe must be right, right? yet I am hard pressed to find any christians claiming they are ALWAYS RIGHT, but why? there are many of the "orthodox" who claim to have the "holy spirit" who disagree about just about every doctrine in the bible and yet that is ignored...but its really the same issue... if everything else can be debated, the trinity which is not even a bible teaching surely is not exempt. the BS about the "real truth" is what gets people killed over stupid debates which no one can absolutely verify as the voice of god in their heads cannot be heard by their opponents.
if you can concede that you do not know everything about the bible then you can have the honesty to see that some people may be right even if you feel deep down in your guts that god is telling you that you are right...it may only be indigestion.
when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.
the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.
the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).
Your God:
The One God is Eternal (has always existed and always will), Immortal (His Divine Nature cannot die), Omnipotent (All-Powerful), Omniscient (All-Knowing), Omnipresent (He is everywhere at the same time), God is the Only One who can read human hearts and minds, God cannot sin and cannot lie, God does not change His morals or His Nature. The One God is the Only One who has the Power and Authority to Create -- God is the Only Creator. God has Perfect Love, Perfect Justice, Perfect Wisdom, Perfect Mercy, Perfect Grace, Perfect Judgment.
The Bible God:
Omnipotent (All-Powerful)
| Jdg 1:19 | And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. |
Omniscient (All-Knowing)
| Gen 18:20 | And the LORD said, Because the cry of |
| Gen 18:21 | I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not , I will know. |
God is the Only One who can read human hearts and minds
And he[God] said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? |
God cannot sin and cannot lie, God does not change His morals or His Nature.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. |
